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OK [intro]: Hello listeners. I am so excited to share this episode that I made with my friends and colleagues Winnie, Jamie, and Sarah who all graduated from Pratt Institute in 2013. They were so honest about their experiences as new professionals in the dance therapy field. The openness that they offer in this episode reveals the complexity of our work and how much trial and error is really involved in the process. I think that this is so valuable because there are a lot of DMT presentations that, to me, seem very clean cut and polished, and while I think it’s great to have such beautifully constructed stories of our work, they sometimes make me feel like I’m the only one struggling when I have challenging cases or just feel lost about my own identity as a dance therapist.
For the more general listeners I will warn you that this is very dance therapy focused but it offers so much valuable guidance on how to creatively approach feeling misunderstood in your position, asserting yourself in the workplace or figuring out a work-life balance. By the way, about 14 minutes into the show, I use the term mirroring but I could have elaborated further. Please see the episode description for a more thorough explanation and for the ladies bio.
OK [1:27]: Welcome ladies! So the four of us have attended the last 2 ADTA conferences together and it seems like once we’re gathered with all these amazing DMTs from around the world, we really feel such a great sense of belonging but at the same time we tend to have a lot of feelings come up about our own identity and worth as DMT professionals. So I wanted to ask you all, how have you struggled and or achieved to find your identity since entering the field?
JY: Hmm!
OK: I know, it’s a brain-scratcher!
JY: Good start! I guess I can start this one off. I really struggled with finding my identity in the field. I has two different jobs in the past four years and at my first job I got really burnt out really quickly and it took me a little while to get over that. I think a big part of finding my identity has been making sure that I have adequate support and like being able to just do the work and not get too much in my head or not get too stressed or not feel like I’m taking it home with me without an outlet, and that’s been really really important, firstly.
And then I think also because I’ve worked with a bunch of different populations, it’s been pretty informative to figure out how I won’t work with different people, from working in a nursing home to an LGBTQ facility, to now working with individuals with disabilities, it’s kind of just what do I bring as a common thread, that no matter how I alter my methods or my techniques or modulate my energy to suit a certain group or individual, you know, what what’s constant that I show up with.
But that being said I’m definitely still figuring out who I am as a dance therapist every day and it’s really an ongoing process.
WW: Yeah and I’ll add to that. I think too for me it’s also been a little bit of letting go of expectations like when I started out my idea of what dance/movement therapy was or who I would be as a dance movement therapist isn’t necessarily what it is now. So I think it’s been the process of being okay that what it looks like or what my life looks like as a dance/movement therapist isn’t necessarily what I started out thinking it would be.
SL: I’ll add to that lastly. I think for me the biggest life saver in my early years as a DMT has been really allowing myself to trust my instincts and when I am confronted with situations or difficult sessions where I feel a little bit at a loss, I just try to return to my ability to trust myself and that I can do the best I can for my clients in that moment and it might not be perfect but if where we’re at, at that moment.
OK: Sounds like both you, Sarah and Winnie, and Jamie too are talking about a very self-forgiving approach that’s been really important in building your identity.
WW: Yeah
SL: Yes!
JY: Yeah, it doesn’t always feel very self-forgiving but that’s the constant goal for me at least is to remember to go easy on myself because I often have really high expectations and then get pretty quickly disappointed and have to dial it back it and remind myself where I am and what I’m doing and that, you know, it’s okay to be in this place and it’s okay to be four years out of school and still figuring it out and to own what I do know and what I don’t know.
OK [5:36]: So that brings me to my next question about setting expectations for yourself and also this inevitable comparing ourselves to more seasoned professionals and wondering where you feel you fit in amongst the more seasoned professionals?
WW: Yeah, Orit, you mentioned that we’ve all been to the conference together and I think that is probably where I feel it the most. I really looked at my training and journey as a dance/movement therapist as sort of school, and internship was conception and just being an incubation and then the finishing of like commencing and thesis was [?] and then the first job, like actually being out in the field and working full time to some capacity and being actually in the job is sort of like growing up and going from childhood to young adult.
So I try to remember that at the conferences and when I’m around some more seasoned professionals and dance/movement therapists and just remember that I’m still learning. I’m learning every day and being patient and kind to myself about that and just knowing okay this is where I’m at as a dance/movement therapist today or right now and try to remind myself that those who have come before me who are presenting more or have like private practice has established- a lot of those individuals have also been in the field for- it varies- but the people that I’m looking to are in the field for 20-plus years, so just to remind myself that I have time.
JY: I think she nailed it on the head with that one [laughing]
OK: Yeah. I was thinking- I was like yep I do the same thing, like Orit- you have all your life.’
[7:41]: Okay, how do you assert your identity at your clinical settings and what are some challenges?
WW: [laughing] There’s definitely some challenges.
OK: Yeah so now we’re kind of broadening our identity, not just in the face of DMT professionals but also amongst other mental health professionals and even, you know, in your settings you may have other types of staff there.
WW: Yeah, for me I found it really helpful to remember in any situation just to keep- the patients are my clients first, so if we’re talking about being amongst other mental health clinicians whether it’s social worker, psychiatrist or behavioral person, if I am advocating for the patient or my client and I remember that what I’m saying or speaking up about or communicating is really advocating for the person that I’m treating- first and foremost. It’s very hard to argue with that and always have to remind myself that on the body-mind information I’m always going to know best. I know that a lot of other disciplines don’t really train with the body in mind, so when I’m talking about it they may not get it, but if it’s in service of the patient first it’s a little bit difficult to challenge that or say no to that.
JY: Yeah I would completely agree with that. This is very similar to what my experience has been. I’ve noticed actually that I’ve become a much more outspoken advocate for my work and my field at my current placement because of certain draws to advocate for my client, and that more times than not, that is accepted and I’ll get a lot of yeses to certain opportunities because people want to- we’re all on the same team, right? So they may not understand where I’m coming from or the modality I’m using to get there but we’re all working towards serving the client and that’s a common goal so that really helps to bridge the gap a lot.
SL: I try to really make it clear when I’m starting at a new site that dance/movement therapy is primarily a psychotherapy and really try to explain the psychotherapeutic rewards of movement and dance, so that other professionals can relate on that level. So even if they can’t fully relate with the body knowledge, they can at least relate with the benefits- the mental health benefits that we bring to the table.
OK: Do you have an example of that? I think I’m asking because anyone who’s listening to this- I’d want them to think that that’s an approach they might be comfortable taking and maybe they can get some guidance of how do you do that? You know, how do you meet the other professionals that way?
WW: I had a thought around that- I think a lot of this job and being able to advocate for the field and what your position is- there is a lot of teaching involved. So if you’re on a treatment team or you’re trying to, like Sarah said, start at a new place, there’s a lot of education involved and just being able to figure out how to translate the DMT vocabulary into- if you’re at a hospital, the medical model, or where I’m at is a recovery model and knowing that, yeah you are going to have to explain to people what dance/movement therapy is.
JY: Yeah, I think something that I’ve experienced with that that has helped a ton is when other colleagues of mine who are not dance therapists see the work that I’m doing with certain clients and see the relationship that I have with those clients. They might not understand how we get there but they can see the progress that we make and that starts a discussion of what methods are you using? What methods am I using? How can we share? How can we generalize some of these methods of connecting to people so that it’s not one person who has a special touch but that it’s everyone understands to approach this individual in a certain way and just getting that dialogue started so that we can collaborate interdisciplinarily- that has been really, really helpful in in my experience.
OK: Right. I’m even thinking about, for example, explaining mirroring. Jamie, when you said how we can explain just connecting the way that we connect to our patients or our clients- I think we can explain mirroring in a way that that can be understood by others and matching affect or matching body language, matching body shape, whatever-
JY: Matching tone of voice
OK: Mmhm
JY: Yeah, those things make such a huge difference and we know that of course, but they’re so powerful as tools in the work and I think those things can be relatively easily explained.
WW: It’s making me thinking about in-services or being able to hold like a staff workshop so that your colleagues are experiencing what it is you’re doing with the clients. So if words can’t really explain it or they’re not really able to hear the words that you’re trying to say to explain your work, then at least they’ve experienced it
OK [13:49]: Yeah that’s a really good point. I’ve found that providing experientials as workshops versus you know PowerPoint is so much more powerful and it’s an experience that sticks with the people who are part of it.
So it is great when we can explain and feel understood and valued but I’m wondering how do you confront when you are misunderstood and feel undervalued as a professional at your job?
SL: It’s frustrating, definitely. I remember I started a dance/movement therapy program at a school in New York for kids who are suffering from disabilities and medical illnesses and I faced a lot of criticism and doubt when I started the position and I remember in the beginning it made me feel really frustrated and kind of terrible [laughing], but to Jamie’s point talking about the relationship-building aspect of our profession, I found that as time went on and my relationship with my students was so strong that other members of the community really started to value me and what I do because they were seeing the result and that really was what kind of changed their opinion of dance therapy over time and they could see that there was value to the work that we were doing, but it’s hard to feel if you’re not getting the support especially when to only dance therapist there.
OK: It’s like a parallel process of as you build the rapport with your patients it helps you build rapport and trust with your co-staff
WW: Yes. Even if you can’t necessarily get to do it in service or a workshop they’ll start to see the little nuggets that you bring to the therapeutic work, so I’m hearing like it kind of goes hand in hand and our conversation is making me realize that and the more you can talk about your work the more that they’ll see your work with the client and hopefully they’ll be able to sort of cherish that a little more and value it more.
SL: I concur!
JY: I concur as well!
OK [16:21]: I concur as well! Um Sarah I really liked your example and it sounded like it took some time. Do any of you have experiences with a sudden interaction where you felt really discounted? Like for me, at my second year internship I worked at a therapeutic school where I ran DMT groups within the educational program and one of my in one of my classes one of the teachers asked if I could provide more structured groups, like duck duck goose. I was really put on the spot there and nothing had happened to me like that before I felt really devalued in that moment, really misunderstood and I wasn’t sure how to confront it. I eventually- I think a day or two later went back and really just explained my point of view and my goals in the more loosely structured sessions that I provided which I think was the issue that was that was making this teacher nervous and it was fine after that- at least it seemed like it was on the surface. He seemed to understand, but I’m just wondering if any of you had experiences like that where it felt like on the spot, just absolutely-
JY: Totally-
OK: Yeah, Jamie?
JY: Yeah, the loudest thing that comes to my mind is actually a day-long workshop that I did actually in collaboration with an art therapist a few years ago and they had all read a graphic novel and were finding creative ways to process it and discuss how it spoke to issues of adolescence and we were invited to come in and do an art and dance therapy collaborative workshop for the day with the high school students and just try to examine issues of identity at that age in adolescence and I remember at one point we had with four groups and after the first group which we thought went quite well and we were very proud of it, the facilitator of the entire workshop approached us and said we weren’t doing enough and she didn’t see enough movement from students and basically offered several ideas of how we could restructure our programming and our intervention and we were both really disappointed and that person- it made us question ourselves and the work that we were doing and was a good enough and what if she’s right? And it took a moment of stepping back and taking a few breaths and feeling into kind of that intuition of knowing what we’re doing is powerful and it’s not a performance and it’s not work that is here for you to see- you didn’t realize but that’s not what you asked for and when you brought us in that’s not what we came to do and we did have to address it afterwards and talk about, you know, how we thought that our expectations were a little bit different from hers and we try to as gracefully as possible explain the work that that we were doing and what our motives were and what we thought we were seeing as opposed to what she asked us for and you know she did listen to us and she seemed understanding.
In the end it was okay but I remember feeling very discouraged on that for a while and having to do a lot of processing with that co-worker and that um colleague and in my support circles because it felt really disappointing to feel micromanaged by someone who didn’t necessarily understand the work that I was trying to do
WW: Yeah this making me think of a few examples, but in my full-time job I’m thinking about like on the on a hospital unit running group and having nurses or other disciplines not quite understand what I’m doing inside of the room so also finding time to go talk to someone to be really clear about what I need to run my group or the work and then be able to say and ask for what it is that I need, as simple as like you know if you need to meet with someone please knock on the door first before opening the door, because that is something that I do run into a lot. Luckily I’m on a unit where I think our unit chief really respect what I do in the creative arts therapist so if you have leadership that is behind you then it kind of will set the example and model for the rest of your colleagues and co-workers, but I’ve also had to do things really concrete and really definitive like turn the TV off and take the remote into the room with me so that no one else can turn the tv back on.
OK: Yeah, respecting our boundaries and how valuable the work is that it would be quite an interruption to be having some sort of disruption in the middle of the group
WW: Uh-huh
JY: Yeah, I think there’s also something that I just thought of is that it’s usually just misunderstanding right, it’s someone who or a system that doesn’t understand what we do entirely and so that going back to educating is so important and thinking of another example recently where I had a co-worker who usually seems to understand the work that I do as a DMT very well and is very supportive and didn’t understand that I was running a private group in a room that was closed off and brought another client to watch the group as an audience member outside the door and it was a client that I also work with and have a very close relationship with but it disrupted the middle of the group and I had to address with that client why he wasn’t involved in this particular group and how you know it might make the other group members uncomfortable to have an audience today. And she has such great intentions because he was expressing that he wanted to dance but he wasn’t in dance that day and so it was this kind of moment where I had to just address it and say you know I know you had great intentions but this is actually what I was intending to do, this was my goal for this particular group and in the future I’d like to avoid having audience members for dance therapy.
OK [23:12]: So I’m going to switch- I’m going to go on to the next question: what is one thing you really wish you had more of in terms of resources and support in the field?
WW: I can think of one thing- well two things [laughing] but while I’m out in the field for me I’ve come up against wishing there were other dance/movement therapists or more dance/movement therapy connection at my site or out in the work even if it is- I’m on a team with different creative art therapists and even among the creative arts therapist I can sometimes still feel like you know you don’t really understand what I’m what I’m talking about or where exactly where I’m coming from we probably speak the same language but we’re talking different dialects and I think it’s just a matter of if it’s not there, finding a way to create it and if it’s if that’s not possible on site or at your job and finding ways to create that dance/movement therapy connection and support outside of your job so that either way I am held and I am heard as a dance/movement therapist by another dance/movement therapist.
SL: Yeah I think Winnie said that perfectly.
JY: Yes that was so perfect um I have one other thing also for me. I don’t know many other dance therapists who are working with my specific population of clients or who have works with my specific population of clients and I definitely wish that I knew of more dance therapists with this experience and that I had some sort of community to process some of the work because it feels, it feels very foreign to what a lot of the other DMTs that I know are doing and sometimes it feels hard to discuss the work that I’m doing in the context of the goals that I have, as opposed to the goals that we might have at their site and so it can be challenging for me sometimes to you know want more support around certain issues and not be sure about how to work with certain individuals and just to not feel connected to other dance therapists who have that experience as well.
OK: Yeah I completely agree and I can relate to those things that you both said is that I wish there was easier or more access to a community where you can kind of like categorize where you’re working at with in the moment, like I know when I started my position as the director of the creative arts therapy department at my current facility I reached out to the NYCCAT listserv and I think I inquired if there were any other creative arts therapists in general in my position and how they adjusted and just general advice and I actually got no response unfortunately, but it would have been great if I could find a way to easily connect to other dance therapists who are in management or leadership positions.
WW: Yeah well maybe Orit this podcast will start some of that
OK: I’m hoping!
JY: Come find us dance therapists!
OK: This is a call to help! Call to action.
WW: A call to support!
OK: Mhmm yeah as many resources as I guess it seems like we have I think we are lacking a little bit and I don’t know if that’s just people leading such busy lives because it our jobs take up so much time and there’s other things that we want to do in life or I don’t know if it’s just the lack of access or knowing how to access this connection.
JY: I think it’s both
WW: I think also the job itself takes a lot of energy um so when your work day is done and maybe your support time, your meeting or supervision meeting is done off-site and then your decompression time is done [laughing] there’s not a lot of hours leftover, so then balance like work life and personal life and just to find the balance so I think it’s a little bit of both of everyone in it who are probably feeling a lot of the same things and not really then being able to like try to find a group or to create a group or you know make more room to make more connection. Sometimes if there is the need to just have the downtime and just to rest and those sort of- or at least I find that I need that and to just sort of not process for a while.
OK: Yeah I would say that’s a really tricky part of finding your identity as a DMT, it’s the balance between processing and finding support and also just laying back on the couch and watching netflix for hours you know? You know you need that but you also know you need the support from others and how much is too much and how much do I need to separate myself from the work and what’s the best way? What’s the most effective way? Is this helping me or harming me? And it’s such a- it’s so much trial and error and so much figuring out, which is of course really helpful in the end and figuring yourself out and what you need.
JY: Yeah and I think Winnie also made such a good point with you know we have a limited amount of time in the week and you know we can set up so many supports for ourselves and have work and support and you know at the end of the day you have a certain amount of time left and you have to figure out how to balance that and what you prioritize that makes you work and makes you function at your best so that’s a hard balance to find. I’m certainly still working on it.
WW: Yeah I think too it’s different like what I need now in sort of decompression time or my rituals before I leave my job site are very different now than my first year of work
JY: Mmm yeah
WW: So that’s the other thing too is if you’re doing the self-care and always checking in with yourself I think that will sort of shed light on where you yourself are at and what you need and you know maybe today I need to go to the gym but maybe tomorrow I’m just going to have to be on the couch and watch Netflix
[laughing]
OK: We’re really advertising Netflix here
[laughing]
WW: Yeah, or Hulu..
JY: Yeah Orit, maybe you should like get a cut [laughing]
OK: I know! [laughing]
WW: definitely and I’ve realized hey you know what it’s okay that I can let that part go like that ritual or that sort of pattern of support from my first year of work or even return to something. It’s just always sort of a continuous checking in with myself to figure out like what do I need? Where am I- where am I at? So and then finding the support and implementing or scheduling something that is going to help me with that or being or saying, oh you know I don’t need that anymore I’m gonna go to every other week or once a month, I don’t need it every week now.
OK [31:31]: Great point about constantly reassessing where you’re at. We’re getting kind of close to the end and I think we’ve collected a lot of great advice and personal experiences for other young professionals or other aspiring DMTs and maybe even giving some new perspective and open and honesty for the more seasoned professionals as we’ve been calling them and I guess my last question would be what is one piece of advice that you would give to other DMTs who are just entering the field, whether they’re still in school or within their first few years outside and in the world of DMT?
SL: I’ll start with that. I think that the concept of self-care cannot be emphasized enough in the early stages of training as a DMT. I know for me in graduate school self-care was not something that I focused on and I really think it kind of came back to haunt me a little bit, and I think taking time out for yourself dancing for yourself through yoga even being in therapy just doing those small daily rituals for yourself that remind you of who you are beyond just this professional to be you’re trying to build is really really critical and it’s really intense going into the field and it’s difficult to separate from our clients sometimes if you’re not careful. I know from experience there are many times in my both in graduate school and also in my career where I have felt very overwhelmed by the needs of my clients and I’ve learned that taking care of myself has to be the first priority because if I’m not well I cannot be well for them.
For me I kind of remind myself that I need to live by example if I have certain expectations of my clients I need to fulfill those expectations for myself first. Also being in therapy is also really critical when you’re on this journey because you’re getting to know parts of yourself that may be new to you [laughing] it’s important to get the space to process that so that you can do this job well into the future.
WW: I’ll just add to that. One of the things that I found really helpful that I’ve learned along the way is that whatever I am facilitating from my client that I make sure that I’m giving back to myself whether that’s throughout my whole day, as small as when I’m setting up a group- what song do I want to listen to for a 30 seconds it’s taking me to set up the room. Or just finding those little times throughout my day to give back to myself because otherwise I definitely feel like when I’m not doing that I can definitely sort of feel the hit of the overflow. And then it just takes more work and a little bit more concentration and focus to sort through all of that countertransference and then just being okay with like, you know what I need to get off the unit. I need to take a break right now and I would definitely say for sure individual therapy. I remember one of first things I ever learned about dance/movement therapy-someone said to me you cannot sit with someone else’s dark stuff if you don’t first it with your own dark stuff and I’ve definitely found that to be true as I navigate my first one to three years.
JY: Yeah absolutely. I think also making sure that you remember to move which I have had periods for myself I know where I become very resistant to movement in various forms and whatever form it takes when I return to it, it always brings me back to myself whether it’s authentic movement or taking a dance class or doing like movement in the bathroom at work for five seconds before i leave for the day that could look like throwing a toddler tantrum like anything that you can do to reconnect your body, finding this active ways to restore your energy and recharge your batteries are so important. Oh, and one more! Sorry-
OK: Go ahead!
JY: As I feel like I have established some supports now and I’m now getting that part of me set, the thing I’m struggling with most is to be kind and have patience with yourself because it’s easy to get down on yourself when you feel like you’re still a novice and when you feel like it’s not good enough but the reminder of it can be good enough and that’s enough and you’re enough and to have that compassion for yourself and not just for your clients.
OK: Yeah I resonate so much with everything that you all said and I just wanted to add my own little thing. I think Sarah said a little bit of this, that you feel like you have to have a life outside of DMT and your identity outside of your dance therapist identity and that is so huge for me. Sometimes I do get caught up in comparing myself to others in the field or just feeling like a novice. I feel like if I feel that way that in life I’m a novice or in life I’m not excelling as much as I want to but I’ve set out to learn a lot of other things outside of the career that make me feel successful and achieving great things like learning new skills, like I’m trying to learn Spanish right now, trying to learn the drums and signed up for a Spartan Race, so having other goals in life that are pretty detached but also like Jamie said still ways that are very connected to myself and my body.
WW: Yeah. I would just say, if you really love the work, keep doing it, keep finding new ways to be in it. Just because the job title doesn’t say therapeutic rehabilitation or rec therapist or creative arts therapist doesn’t mean you’re not doing the work. Sometimes we have to be creative about our job placements so just keep going.
OK: Well this was really awesome I’ve been smiling this entire time because your answers have been so insightful and I’m just thinking about people listening to this and really connecting and relating and that’s how I’ve been feeling this whole time so I think that this has been so great and I’m really, really grateful.
JY: Yeah I was just reflecting on the fact that I’ve been smiling for I don’t know how long. I feel so joyed in this place and get to just be discussing it with you guys
SL: Yeah I feel really held
OK: Aw!
[laughing]
WW: If you are feeling like your past this one point but not quite yet at another reach out to your colleagues from your class or your sort of growth level and just form something and create something that where you guys can talk about where you’re all at together.
JY: Thank you for having us Orit!
WW: Yeah!
OK: Thanks for coming on and being open about your stories and y’all sound like you’ve done this before
[laughing]
WW: Every day!
[laughing]
OK: My whole life is an interview
WW: Yeah every day my internal monologue
[laughing]
OK: “Winnie, why are you doing this right now?”
WW: [laughing] yeah, what do I need right now? Is this what I’m supposed to be doing?
OK: Alright so we’re gonna say [laughing] I’m like let’s find a way to close
[laughing]
JY: I feel like we need to all take deep breaths together and hold hands
OK: Let’s virtually hold hands, feel each other’s energies [laughing]
WW: I’m holding my phone
OK: and say goodbye to whoever’s listening!
JY: Goodbye whoever’s listening!
[All say Bye]
[Music]